An elder statesman, Senator Olabiyi Durojaiye, spoke with ADEWALE AJAYI on some burning national issues. Excerpts:

What would you say  led Nigeria to this state of anomie?
To do justice to this question requires going into a lot of history. I think what led to it was the intervention of the military. Even before the intervention of the military, there were traces of corrupt practices, but  that was about the level in many parts of the world too, it is not that Nigeria invented corruption. It has now  reached a level that is incurable and unacceptable to every decent person. It is ridiculous that it permeates all facets of the society. That is why it is a major embarrassment. Even during the civil rule before the military came, there had been complaints about little tips and largesse, and not anything comparable to what we have now.

The corruption started with the military with the corruption of the constitution. The system of government we are adopting also seems to lend a hand to it. So, that is why we have been saying, let’s reform, let’s really have a fresh constitution that will be most suitable to our condition, whereby we will have sufficient funds for development and less on bureaucracy. What we spend on administrative functions is too much, compared to what we spend on development . We will now be able to fix electricity, which has diminished the chances of self-employment of people, such as hair dressers and shoemakers. Cottage industry that would have been booming, little things that would have mopped up the unemployment problem in the system caanot function when there is no power.

Also corruption led to the fall of the standard of education. Teachers no longer concentrate on teaching. Everybody wants to supplement what he earns. Musicians too praise to the high heaven those who can distribute money. So, when people steal money or obtain it by corrupt practices, they want to show to the society they have arrived. Traditional rulers would award them chieftaincy titles and so on. It is all involving. It is difficult to give a specific day that corruption started, or to say this particular person started it. But collectively, we can say things went haywire after the military came in, and the kind of constitution we have seems to aid and abet it.

You talked of having a new constitution. Do you think those who reap from the imperfection in the present constitution will allow the kind of constitution you have in mind?
It depends on you and me, our will to insist on what we feel is best for us. That is why we came out, that is why NADECO (National Democratic Coalition) came out last week. We said we have been silent for so long, hoping that things would be better. But democracy is threatened now.

Should we wait until violence consumes the country before we speak? Those who are benefiting from the system are as many as those suffering from it. Didn’t they learn some lessons from the protests of the second week of January. This thing is deep rooted in the hearts of the people. The masses are greater in number than those who are benefiting from the system. So, should we be afraid of challenging the few on top and safeguard the interest of the masses, or allow them to suffer until they will erupt  because there is a limit to provocation?

We don’t want a revolution here because it is always bloody and innocent people suffer. So, that is why we have to avoid that and  the press has a big role to play in this matter.

From the way things are, are we making genuine effort to get out of the wood.
At my age, I am still part of those calling attention to the way to  go, but it is not everybody that is serious about it. Some people are only waiting for the opportunity of getting there.

Nigerians have been clamouring for a Sovereign National Conference and the Federal  Government has not deemed it fit to address the issue genuinely. Don’t you think things are  getting out of hand?
We don’t want the government to fail. Whether you voted for that government or not, the best thing is to pray for it to succeed. We don’t want the government to be toppled by violence because you never know where it may end. That is why we said no! If we say, this government is not active enough; it is not fulfilling its social contract with the people by ensuring security, we don’t want any adventurer to come and push them out to the extent that we are back to square one. We give examples. Those of us who fought for democracy do not want it to be destroyed.

That does not mean we are aiding and abetting a government that is not doing enough to ensure the welfare the people. How can a group of people begin to dictate: ‘you should go back to your own part of the country,’ we don’t want you in our area.’ The reaction of the people being pushed was, ‘okay, if you push us to our own part of the country, we are ready to go, but we must have our boundary, which is River Niger and Benue  .

It better to have jaw jaw than war. After war, there is always dialogue. Those who do not allow a peaceful change risk violent change. That is why we are hammering it  to them that we love this country probably more than those who say they are in power. For a long time, youths from my own part of the country have been agitating for secession. They base their agitation on the fact that even Ghana is not up to a quarter of Yorubaland, but it is people like me that have been rebuffing such demands; that there is advantage in number and that is the philosophy of Papa Obafemi Awolowo. If he had wanted us to break away, he would have done so, but Baba never did so, he must have seen the wisdom in doing what he did, and I don’t know of a leader more talented than Baba Awolowo. He saw it all and urged people to be patient. But the younger people don’t want to hear what I am saying now any more. They feel enough is enough. With this Boko  Haram nonsense going on, they (the promoters) felt they should stay in their own part of the country and the Yoruba should stay in their own part of the country. We elders are the ones rejecting that move.

Let’s persuade those in power, let’s come together, can we really discuss the Boko Haram issue. What are the things we will do? The people in that area want the sharia system of government. Fine! But they should control their own region. In a truly federal system, you can say what you want to do. Religion is free; you can decide which one you want. Maybe you want theocracy in your area. Fine! The constitution will allow it. Or you can go and practise what you want. We also have what we want in our own region. We have no more than six regions. During the time of Baba Awolowo, we operated three regions and Nigeria was a better country. Then, we had true federalism. We had concurrent powers in certain areas, but residual power lay with the region. Now that our population is about four times what it was in the 60’s, it is not bad to have six regions, and fortunately, those regions are easy to recognise. The Constitution recognises six geopolitical arrangements in the country with three in the North and three in the South.

Let’s reorganise ourselves in such a way that there will be six governors — one for each region. Each region will now decide whether it wants want to shrink the number of local government areas or create some states within the region and have autonomy to manage their affairs. When they see what other regions  are doing, there will be a healthy rivalry. Certain things will still remain at the centre. We will still have federal roads and foreign affairs will still be a federal matter. But police should be regionalised. Each region should have its own police.

What does the situation whereby citizens are not comfortable to live in areas other than their places of origin portend for the country?
It is a very bad omen. It is not good. I think it is stupidity or misplaced fear that these people are against our government. They feel they have no stake in government which is a fallacy. We are not in government at the federal level, but we are in government in the South-West. My own party is in control in most states in the west. We don’t want a detraction. We want our governors in the South-West  to succeed in a peaceful atmosphere. We have not decided as a people  on secession and I don’t think that is on the table. But if people forced us, because there are people here that have wanted it for a long time, we will only fold our arms and siddon look as late Chief Bola  Ige put it, and say, we told you so, but we don’t want that to happen.

We have nothing to lose by having a Sovereign National Conference. For over 14 years, people have been saying we should have an SNC. They (those in authority) were arguing, ‘you cant have it because sovereignty resides with us.’ But no matter what they call it, let’s have the conference. I can’t put up the modalities, but the more populous states should have more representatives. The professionals must be represented and youths must have a say in it because it is their future and the womenfolk must be represented.

It will even be much easier if we revisit the 1960 Constitution. That was what our founding fathers: Awolowo, Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe and Sardauna of Sokoto, Sir Ahmadu Bello, agreed on. And we should consider those things that have changed since their time and have a panel  look at them.

Perhaps if you have the parliamentary system , whereby the party can call you to order, maybe there will be greater discipline than what we have now. The setting up of a constitution amendment committee does not help. It is tinkering patching and patching. Let the people have their own constitution.

How would you rationalise the dilemma of the Yoruba race in the present situation?
Things have not been the same in the Oodua House. It is unfortunate that whereas some have genuine reasons to want to put things right, others are just confusing the issue. Some people say the Yoruba do not occupy topmost position in this administration. That is not the major issue. The Yoruba are  entrepreneurs and professional people, hardworking and intelligent. We have never agitated that we must be in government at all costs. We don’t live by government alone. If you can make a constitution that will ensure a steady supply of electricity, water, good roads and a country where merit is allowed, the Yoruba will always come forward. There is no way you can push a hardworking, highly talented people away. But to make it a condition that until we get appointment, you might be missing the point. There are so many Yoruba who are outside government, and most successful Yoruba do not depend on government. So, if government feels it can run without choosing highly talented people like the Yoruba, how unwise they are! We have got examples in our own part of the country. Ogun and Oyo states are not run by the Hausa or Ibibio. My challenge is for us to make exemplary leadership for our people. Once people see it, they will copy us.

We are entitled to be at the federal. There is no doubt about it. I served at the federal level, to be precise, the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN) purely on merit. Not that I am happy about this, but what I am saying is that, we can ignore those who ignore us, because we can live without being in government. Let’s have a good system, if we do, merit will surface.

Is it possible for the Yoruba to come together as a united entity and speak with one voice on crucial national issues all the time?
It is possible and desirable.

How?
Well, I cannot say I know the answer, but there are certain things we have to correct. Look at the political class , things fell asunder when we could not agree. It dates back to 2002. There was a proposition that Afenifere should constitute a political arm to fight in the election and some of us said no, it would be a mistake to do it; that Afenifere should remain the vanguard of what is of interest to the Yoruba people; let the Alliance for Democracy (AD) build bridges across; that at some point, we would be able to form government at the national level. This country would have been a better place if Chief Awolowo had been allowed to rule.

There are issues Afenifere would have been able to handle, such as what happened after the population census, and people said Lagos population was less than 11 million. That is where Afenifere would have come in as the pro-Yoruba organisation. The National Assembly members from the party would be given areas to fight for when they get to the National Assembly. That is what Afenifere should be doing .

How do you feel that the Yoruba race does not have a group that can speak respectably on its behalf?
That is an unfortunate situation which we must correct. It is a challenge to us. We should swallow our individual pride. We can still mend the fences because the situation has not favoured any of us. Nobody would say he is happy for the break-up of the institution. We should be prepared to make sacrifices in the interest of our people.

What is the implication of the Supreme Court ruling which sacked five governors who should have left office in May 2011?
I am still studying the ruling, because it is a bit intriguing. It is not a thing I can jump in and comment. I will check the Constitution. If the Supreme Court gives a unanimous verdict on an issue, it is not a thing you just throw away. Where do you appeal to? We assume the Supreme Court is right, then we relay back. How do we solve the problem it has created?

The National Assembly has been accused of not doing enough to fight corruption. If you look at the National Assembly when you were in the Senate between 1999 and 2003, would you say now that there is improvement on the foundation you laid?
It would not be fair to pass a judgment on our successors, but when you compare what is going on, you might say the Senate has not done as much as we would want them to do. What I know and learn through the press is that the legislators’ earning are rather exceptionally high. I don’t know if it is the truth, but something should be done by way of self-sacrifice on their part. I learnt they have taken some steps on their own to slash their salaries. It is a step in the right direction. A story was published sometime ago that a female deputy director had N800 million in her bank account and that was the last we heard about it. The matter should be investigated to the end. That is a way to fight corruption. It should not be left half-way. The newspaper exposed the watergate scandal in the United States of America (USA).