Women political leaders are not skillful in stealing - Niger gov.

updated: Monday 14-07-2008

Dr. Muazu Babangida Aliyu,
Niger State governor.
Photos: Wole EfunnugaDr. Muazu Babangida Aliyu, governor of Niger State, is one governor who has dropped the toga of ‘Your Excellency’ and prefers to be addressed as ‘Chief Servant’ for peculiar reasons. He speaks with Associate Editors, Wole Efunnuga and Sina Oladeinde, on issues concerning his background, family, Niger State and the nation. Excerpts:

Chief Servant sir, you were once a teacher, now you are on the other side of the divide, and teachers are agitating for a wage increase. What’s your take on this?
Look, originally, or rather, in my heart of hearts, I am a teacher. But being pragmatic, I remember the warning strike, I spoke with my colleagues so that we could nip it in the bud by making people appreciate one thing. I remember why the military thought of creating one centre, and all the unions were re-organised as one. That was during the unitary system.

When a circular from the office of the Chief of General Staff surfaced, all the military governors would just implement it. Now, we’re in democracy, in a federal system. In the Federation Account, Niger State, on the average collects N48 billion. Another state on average, collects between N10 billion and N30 billion. And though education, for instance, is on the concurrent list, it doesn’t mean it has to be uniform. If the Federal Government is able, maybe two or three states are able to pay a particular amount of money, other states may not be able to pay it. So, while the federal can negotiate with the central NUT, states should be allowed to negotiate with their own NUT.

And when I came in as governor, I realised that Niger State was probably the least-paying in the country. And I said to them: “Okay, look, this your 15% that you’re agitating for, it is not going to benefit you. Let us negotiate the whole issue and we ended up with 21% and 29%, depending on which level they belong. Now, I’m almost third among the three highest-paying states. So, for you to come and tell me that another salary structure is from the centre, that would be unfair to me because I’ve already done something ahead.The federal ministry of education has invited all the states to come for a meeting based on that. So, for me, ordinarily, I would support the teachers for whatever but now, because of where I am sitting, I can see the danger of saying Yes, I think we can do it because the moment you say Yes without negotiating, other professionals will join

Talking about your belief in women empowerment. Now, with the spate of allegations against some women political office holders like former Speaker, Patricia Etteh, Iyabo Obasanjo, Professor Grange and so on, do you still uphold this position?
When you follow the trend, the one concerning Etteh, I think it has to do more with politics. The actual stealing did not take place. Being a former civil servant, I know that sometimes, it is the civil servants who would go and write these things and then tell the boss “this is the way to go about it.” Even if the boss is very careful and says “why don’t we do it this way?”, they won’t agree When I was a permanent secretary, we renovated those houses, but we did it from the FCT purse, because the houses then were supposed to be under the FCT. We and the FCTDA, which was supposed to be in charge of those houses. So, there was a process in place. Sometimes it’s not the people who would say “give me money”, it’s the system that would make it that way. There would have been a list of beneficiaries. If it had gone that way, nobody would have known. And, in most cases, when you’re on the top there, you’re always cheated because you don’t want to ask too many questions. I still stand my ground on the women empowerment issue. The women are being caught easily because they don’t know even how to do it.

Closely related to that is the issue of the National Assembly trying to look at the immunity clause which has generated a lot of controversy. There is an aspect that people always controvert; that is not questioning governors while in power. What is your view about this?
Personally, if not for what we’re talking about now, you have to understand your own system or your own temperament. On the one hand, I don’t care whether you’re immuned or not immuned, it is not your actions that will tell, because even if you’re immuned, during the process, a room has now been given that immediately you leave, you could be prosecuted, and that’s what has been happening. And, to me, my stand is; how can you serve people for four years or eight years and end up in prison? I think it’s a disservice to yourself and to the people that you have served. At the very worst, it is that you offended some people but the majority of the people you have served should be on your side because you have tried to do good to them.

But given the Nigerian situation, if you disallow the so-called immunity, you would find out that a lot of governors would be more in court than administering the state, because every little thing now, somebody would rush to court. Look at my situation, everybody knew, even when I was much more younger in 1983, I resigned an appointment to contest an election.

How can I make any mistake when I was even the one receiving the retirement and resignation or giving people the notice of how to follow due process, and then for somebody to say he’s pinning all the issues on the fact that I did not retire. And what the electoral law says is you retire 30 days to the election. And then they cooked up stories, they went to the Head of Service’s office, without the Head of Service knowing, within two hours, they took a letter and they got somebody because they had already arranged to get a reply to say that, well, I did not pay the normal thing that I should pay. I was posted to the Head of Service’s office in December 2006. And I retired February 2007. My salary card had not been transferred from my ministry to the Head of Service’s office.

Sir, agriculture is an aspect that is very important to the country. What are you doing to improve the resources of agriculture since Niger State has a large landmass?
Along the line, we have lost what we can call agricultural policy to the extent that people simply think that buying fertilizers, tractors, etc is what we call agricultural policy. Niger State is one of the largest producers of rice in this country and probably, West Africa, and we believe that with the landmass that we have, we should be able, not only to feed Nigerians, but other West Africans but we have allowed a situation whereby a farmer produces below expectation. In this age, you can find a farmer with a family of 12 or 15, and has one acre of farmland, while claiming to have a farm. The commercial farming is no more. The irrigation farming, despite the resources that we have from River Niger, River Kaduna and River Benue, we still could not harness all these.

However, what we are now doing is to ensure that we have the agricultural policy back in place, which will bring about commercial farming and one that will be profitable too. So, if there must be a multi-dimensional approach, we need to assist the farmers. There are certain things that can grow in any part of Niger. We have also discovered that in any part of Niger State, we don’t need fertilizer but if you don’t make fertilizers accessible to the farmers, they will believe that the crops will not grow well. In other words, we need more extension workers to advise farmers on what to do. Then we need to give farmers a kind of loan that will be sufficient in order for them to enjoy the fruits of their labour. The rice mill in the state that used to give them confidence, has not worked for 10 years. We have, however, entered into an agreement with the company, backed by First Bank of Nigeria.

Part of the arrangement was that, they will build a new one within six to 12 months and I am getting other investors to come and build more.One should look at farming as something that provides the farmer with a decent standard of living and everybody should be involved in farming

Let us delve a bit into your background. While growing up, did you ever have that feelings that you would one day be in this position?
Not exactly. But I knew then that I would always have people around me, meaning that even within the small group, even among my brothers, I have always had an influence. I was aware of the first day we went to school, we were told to put our hands across our shoulder so that we could touch our ears. The first time, I couldn’t, but after two or three months, I was able to. And that was why they put us in half-class, not class one. It was when we moved to Kuta, and that was in class two. I began to feel like, yes, I was something. I was always coming home with more than ten children of my age-group. When I look back today, I realised that it was small food that we were given, but all of us would eat and we would be okay. There was not a time that I was alone. I was always with my friends. But I have always felt this leadership positions in terms of the way I got attracted to all these people. But there’s one thing I will never forget about my father. Apart from his horse trading, he had these pigeons that he got for me, he put them in a room, he used to say they were his own, but he used to tell me they were mine and that I should not steal anybody’s money and that whenever I was broke, I should tell him so that I would pick one and sell in the market. I had a brother, my junior brother, who was reserved. While I was gregarious, he was reserved. And he was closer to the old man while I was closer to the old woman. I tried something that school children used to do then. Every Friday, they would go to the market to carry loads for people and they would be given money. I tried it one day, unfortunately for the man who put the gallon of Kerosene on my head, my neck “entered” and the man nearly fainted because he had put the gallon of kerosene on the head of the son of a judge.

That also gives you a perspective of how things were. But believe me, by the time I was in class four, I was aware of the little influence that I had on my class. And in Kuta, they used to do something for us. Every evening, we would go to school, line up, and the seniors who felt they knew more than you would say: “spell dog, spell God!” Anybody who was able to do it would then knock the other pupils on the head. And believe me, I knocked more than I was knocked.

When you flash back into the past, what were the things you considered as being naughty that you did while in school which you now have a re-think about?
I think we have to segment them into the primary and secondary schools. In the primary school, there was the common interest exploit and the classroom exploit. In fact, my group brought me a picture of our primary school days. One of my primary school classmates is a director in Niger State.

The common interest now is that many of them are working with me presently. The Emir of Minna, we went to school together. The current Sultan of Sokoto was my classmate. I went to school, I did not miss a year, maybe if I had missed a year, it would have been a negative story today.

I remember in Kaduna, a senior of mine who made me to serve punishment that I will never forget in my life.He asked me to look at the sun, to lie down with my eyes to the sun. He said I should not close my eyes and it was a serious punishment at that time. But fortunately, I became his senior few years after and anytime he saw me, he would try to dodge, but there was no way he could do that perfectly and when I realised that seeing me was like a punishment for him, I made sure that he was seeing me more.

Did you remind him of this past acts?
If I did, I would have given him a chance to get out of his feelings but I never did. I remember that two or three people asked me why he was always avoiding me when we were together and I told them what happened.

Some of us were in the boarding house when I was in secondary school. During my secondary school days, our school was in town before we relocated to the permanent site. Being in the boarding house allows one to know what a society is all about with all the patience of people and the nature of the people you meet.

In my primary school, I fought with a friend but when we got to secondary school, we reconciled and we became so intimate, but we were then in competition in examinations and tests. The fact that one is small in stature, he could not be given prefectship and I had to devise my means of becoming naughty in school and that influence my becoming articulate, I was always in club of my school like drama. and later on Speaker, president of Students’ Union, NLC etc.

At the university level, I had become a family man. I had a car and I had my wife. In 1980, I had a child. In fact, during the naming ceremony, I tried to go to school to organise a party in Minna but I had an accident and I spent two months in the hospital. I came out of the hospital, not fully recovered because they were afraid of the maitasine and they appointed me to come and contest for the House of Representatives. Four months after, there was Fellow Nigerians. I knew it would happen because I was in somebody’s house and he told me that I should go back home and should not come out until so so so time. So, when in the morning, they woke me up that there was a coup de’tat, I said I knew, I just wanted to wait and see.

So, what I did when I realised I couldn’t be a prefect. I became the president of over five clubs, but most importantly, I became the president of the Muslim Students Society because the school was purely all muslims. And believe me, as a result of that, I became much more popular and much more acceptable than even the head-boy.

I also became the president of the drama society but that of the muslim society gave me a moral authority over everybody in the school because we had two sections: the Grade II teachers’ which was for the young ones, and Higher Muslims. Immediately after that, when I went to the College of Education, I became the Speaker. By the next year, one of my brothers, actually my main brother who took care of me very much, wanted me to go and study architecture. He brought the forms but I knew that I was not one of those who could lock themselves up in the room to start drawing things. I was already getting ready to become the president of the Students’ Union but he didn’t know. So, when he saw the forms, he asked what I was doing and I said “I’m sure I’m going to win the presidency of the Students’ Union.” And I won the election.

What gave you that impression that you would win?
Because like I told you, it was the tradition, you had to be in the second year before you became the speaker of the parliament. But I was a first-year student elected the speaker of the parliament and with what I saw as the rule, that it would take a miracle to make it. If I’m to put it in perspective, I took too much risk by assuming because I wonder some times: Suppose I did not win? And here I was, I had already, maybe directly or indirectly, offended my elder brother by not doing what he wanted me to do.

Let’s take a look at your school days. Given the background of your unionism and activism, what were your school days like?
Which level? Like, I told you, I was smallish at the secondary school, I couldn’t be given prefectship and I had to be president of about five clubs to be able to get on. But we had also a small club that we used to call 10 mad heroes. We had scorpion as our emblem.

Ten mad heroes? What were the parameters for joining the club?
You know at the secondary school, you wanted to be naughty. You wanted to show that you had a group. It was not like the cult of today. We had this singlet with the Scorpion as symbol. And we were more enlightened than others. We used to sneak out to go to the cinema; at least our group was the one that was more noticed about going to cinema. If you were a member, you must be brilliant and make sure that you were not seen to be doing things that would tarnish the image of the group. We had to be either in the debating club or any other good club. If you were not a good debater, you should be in the drama club and if you were not, you should be in the historical club and so on. Something that would show that you were a little better than others. Luckily for me, I was in all the clubs.

Why scorpion? Scorpion does not connote something positive?
Who said so? My star too is scorpion. But at that time, I didn’t know about my star. It had to do with the stinging; a way of saying don’t touch us, whether you are a prefect or you’re something.

There is this belief that a lot of women run after people of your calibre. You have only one wife. Is it that women are not running after you or that you are not running after them or that you are evading them?
No, no. In fact, somehow, because of some reasons, some people wanted to make me look like a womaniser, but I prefer to be accused of following women than to be following men. On a more serious note, the issue, I think has to do with what God has in plan for you. I don’t know why you did not even ask how come I finished NYSC in August 1978 and I got married by December 1978. And believe me, by December 1978, I was just 23 years old. And even then, I had senior brothers who had not married; at the time I got married, I had senior brothers of the same father who had not got married then.

And when we were younger, there were some who their girlfriends used to be white people rather than black girls. I was seen more like the polygamist type, and when I got married, I tried to know what happened but, believe me, I got what I was looking for.

Somebody who was tolerant enough to allow me to pursue my ambitions and who had never, and up till today I don’t think that she has been able to do that, ask me:“why are you coming back home late?” Even in the days when we were younger, she was not the type that would be looking in my pocket to see either a note or something and making an issue out of it and even when people would come and say “oh, he’s befriending so and so person“, it would be three months after, like a joke, that she would say “ah, I knew you were befriending so and so person,” I would say “oh, are you just hearing it now?”. There was a time I accused her. I said ”if I’m not careful, you’ll send me to hell; how come that you don’t fight about this or that?” Then I told her, I said “if we spend 25 years or clock age 50 years and I do not not have a second wife, I will never marry a second wife again in my life. I said whichever came first but I knew 25years of wedding would come first. I got married at 23, so, I needed 27 years to be faithful.

Is the resolution still valid?
Yes, because by December 15, 2008, it will be 30 years. So we’ve passed that stage. And look, that one (his son) in glasses is a medical doctor now, the girl by the left is the first born; that young man is the second one, he’s an engineer. The third one has just graduated in neurosciences, but went to medical school. The other ones are in secondary school. So what more? I’m contented.

Now, to your question, any young man, particularly with the way we were growing up, with a little something in his pockets would suffer the same thing, but you needed to be careful.

Let me add something. When I was in secondary school, I had a senior brother who was attending A.B.U and was students’ union leader and they came to the schools too when they were forming what they called NOWESA (North-West Students’ Association) to speak to us. When he came to my school, everybody was happy when he spoke. They said “Aha! That’s how you speak! That’s your brother.” We had such people that we were already looking up to.

Did your mother or any other person ever give you a premonition that you would be a great man in the future ?
I know that this cuts across all African cultures: When a child is born, you see people making predictions, premonitions, that person is likely to be this; this is what he’s likely to be.

Well, I was given my grandfather’s name. From my father’s side, before me, there were about seven or eight boys who were born before me, and none of them was given my grandfather’s name. Even my father was not the most senior, he had other children, other senior brothers who had children and yet none of them was given my grandfather’s name.

My mother, in fact, was not even calling me the Babangida which other people were calling me until I protested. You know, when you’re walking, if they say “Kai”, it means your attention is needed. She used to call me that, “Kai” then, I would answer because I knew she was looking for me. But one day, my father encouraged me to protest. He was passing by when he heard her call me “Kai”. Then, he said “don’t you have a name?” and he passed on. So, one day when she started, I just sat there, and I was in primary school. I sat there, I refused to answer. She came, she touched me “Am I not talking to you?” Then, I told her “my name is not ‘kai’, I have two names, if you can’t call either, then don’t call me ‘Kai’” Then, she started calling me Babangida. But as to remembering whether anybody had said anything, it was much more later, and even this one I didn’t believe it. The person, I think it was one of these mallams who came and I thought he was just looking for attention. He said “take care of this boy, he may do this and that”. Then, I had a slight problem.

What was this slight problem?
I came 6th, which was a movement far away from my normal position. And then, my father told my mother and she became very much disturbed. Then, she said “don’t worry; I’m aware you will reach the end of school.” At that time, I didn’t know what the end of school was until I finished TAC. Then after that, it was when I went back to her that I said “you remember so-so time you said...” She started reminding me of so many things. Nobody wants to tell you, particularly muslims, they find it difficult to try to pre-empt certain things.
But I was aware too by myself how I became very faithful in depending on God. When I was in form three, I remember how my father came out, at about 1.00 a.m and saw me in the middle of the house, reading the Koran, and he said “what are you looking for?” I said “I don’t want to fail.” I remember that.

He smiled and went back but said “you must finish by 3.00 o’ clock” I said ”Yes, sir.” I didn’t tell him who gave me that reading verse because sometimes, when you go to these mallams, they tell you to wake up at 3.00 a.m and do this and that. I believe in prayer, and I do it a lot.

People are of the opinion that President Yar’Adua’s approach to solving the nation’s problems is too slow. What is your view on this?
Now, try to justapose that with my own. My impression was that people wanted action for eight years but didn’t see it. I drew the lines. I saw the resources and I said this is what we should do with the resources. Even though I was not coming in as a politician, there were perspectives that we had.

I was senior enough in the system and, if you recall, I was the only federal permanent secretary from Niger State. So, I should have paid attention to what was happening in Niger State and look at what should be done.

I do not see the one year of Yar’Adua as being slow with what is happening, moreso with the activist approach of the previous administration, moreso with the intellectual bent that was brought into the system, where it leaves the system opened up with the World Bank, with the IMF, with the consultants and very many initiatives. If you come, you need to take stock of what is happening. Look at the railway thing. We went to Kajola, and now suddenly everything seems to be in question. Many things that could have been conceptualised, maybe in the process of implementation, something could have gone wrong. So, there is nothing wrong; even the privatisation process, as an issue, everybody felt, yes, remove government’s hands. There was a time when nationalisation was the thing, put government everywhere. Now, it is “take government out.” But in the process, certain things could have happened that you needed to take care of. So, the sum total of the situation, if government continues in the same pattern for the next one year, then we would be right in condemning him.