My worries over Nigeria - el-Rufai

El-Rufai. Pic: Elijah Olaluyi

Associate Editor, Sina Oladeinde and Deputy Editor, Bankole Makinde, took up former Minister of the Federal Capital Terittory (FCT), Malam Nasir el-Rufai, on a number of issues in Abuja last week and he spoke extensively on the power project probe, the FCT land debacle, among other issues. Excerpts:

How has it been since you left office; I know you’re in the UK, studying law... how has it been, being a student all over again after a momentous service as the FCT Minister, Executive Secretary of BPE and so on and so forth?
Really, it’s quite a change. I’d almost forgotten how to be a student. All my life, I enjoy being in school. I started this law degree more than 10 years ago but I had to suspend completing it because of the nine years I spent in public sevice, but now that I’m free, I thought it is time to go back and complete it. I’ve been spending most of my time in the U.K and in the United Arab Emirates, in Abu Dhabi to be precise, trying to develop some business contacts there and I’ve been working on opening an office of El-Rufai and Partners Quantity Surveying in Abu Dhabi because there’s a lot of construction work going on, while also preparing for my LL.B exams.

So it’s been quite a change but what I found a little bit of a surprise was that in the nine years I’ve been in government, my brain has reduced in efficacy. While I used to read once and remember, I can no longer... I have to read twice; I’ve got a little older...

Growing older... You know, medically they say, as you grow older, the brain tends to relax...
I think there’s age; there’s also the stress of what is going on... You know, when you held public office at the level I did, you can’t switch off and just concentrate on reading; you’d like to know what is happening in your country. And because I care about Nigeria, the first thing I do every morning wherever I am abroad is log on to the Internet and read the newspapers, read the headlines at least and that sometimes affects one’s concentration, even when you’re reading, because, you know, when your country is not doing as you want, it worries you.

Well, you said something about what is going on in the country, that is affecting your concentration as a student; that when you log on to the Internet, what you read about the country is not encouraging. You were in the Obasanjo government for eight years. Why do you feel so distressed now when you read about the goings-on in the country?
Because, you know I thought that ... I worked with General Abdulsalami Abubakar.We laid the foundation for this democracy and I thought President Obasanjo’s government struggled with the legacies of military rule, corruption and tried to cope and it wasn’t easy. I think towards the middle of President Obasanjo’s second term, things began to take shape; we began to solve some of our fundamental problems, like our debt crisis was resolved. We got our exchange rate stable; we began to lay foundations for the take-off of the economy in many ways.

I’m a little distressed that that take-off hasn’t happened. When we talked about Vision 2020 at that time, we were really optimistic that the country was like a jumbo jet ready to take off but, you know, I have doubts now whether we’ll ever take off and that is very distressing for me because I think all the components of luck that every country needs to really develop are in place; you know, we have natural resources; oil prices are at their highest level; we have had the longest period of democratic rule; we are finally building institutions, public as well as private institutions for growth. Unfortunately, the momentum is not being sustained in my view, and that is very distressing for me, personally. We all expected, you know, much more than this.

You said you tried to go back to law because you’ve left public office, but you’re still a member of the Nigerian Energy Commission. And why is it not functioning?
Yeah, I’m a member of the Energy Council. It was inaugurated in September. We’ve not had another meeting since then. I don’t think it is not functioning; I think the various committees of the council have been meeting, but the council itself has not met. I’m looking forward to the day when we’ll have that meeting.

Excuse me, you were saying that the momentum which was generated during the Obasanjo government has not been sustained by the present regime. But if you read papers everyday, you see people bashing the man (Obasanjo) up and down. What’s wrong?
Well, I think it’s a national culture in this country to attack everyone that has left office; keep quiet while he’s in office and praise him, and then when he leaves office, you attack him. It has become a national culture, an unfortunate one. But you will also find out, just like we had with Babangida and Buhari, five years after, people will start coming back and start saying “Oh, this regime is worse.” Nigerians have the tendency of demonising the immediate past, okay. And because the Nigerian elite are struggling for jobs and appointments and contracts, they will never criticise the one in office until when he leaves.

I guess it’s a stage in our development and one day, we’ll be through it, but it’s becoming a recurring decimal in Nigeria’s history. I think it’s unfortunate. I will never fail to criticise someone because he’s in office and then after he leaves office, I suddenly find the urge to criticise him. But we’re seeing a lot of that. We’ll never make progress behaving like this.

Sir, some people said you felt so disappointed that Obasanjo promised to make Yar’Adua retain you as FCT Minister, but the man stabbed you in the back. What’s your reaction to this?
Obasanjo was an outgoing president; he couldn’t promise to retain anyone. Secondly, Obasanjo knew I wasn’t interested in being in government after spending nine years in government. I felt it was time to take a break and I wanted to do certain things with my life, like finish my law degree and pursue some of my academic and professional pursuits. I wasn’t a “government man”; I came into government by accident and every single day I was in governement was just an imposition on my time and on my life plans. Obasanjo knew, and everyone, including president-elect Yar’Adua knew, that my desire was not to be in government but to move on back to the private sector.

Still on the Obasanjo government - we are rehashing the Obasanjo government because you were a major player in that government and one of his right-hand men; that’s why what is happening to you now is happening. You said something about the Obasanjo government struggling to get the economy back in shape and to fight corruption. Now, what you read in the newspapers nowadays is that the government was highly corrupt. You hear about power project being completed, and again not being completed. You were a part of the government. Was the government as corrupt as it is being painted now?
You see, my view about this whole thing is this: there’s a difference between newspapers’ headlines or one person making claims and reality. Let’s take the power project. I was there. I didn’t run the power project; I think Senator Liyel Imoke did and he can explain that. And when he appeared before the committee, he did that very well; people even clapped for him when he was there. But I know for a fact that, one, the Obasanjo administration didn’t quite figure out the challenges in power until around 2004, and from about 2005 began to invest aggressively in generation and transmission capacity; it took time. It’s complicated and I’m not sure the people making all the noise even understand the power sector and its implications because it took Obasanjo who was former Head of State with all his experience - it took him time before he finally understood the complications and began to do something about them.

That is one. Secondly, you know, these contracts are EPC (engineering procurement and construction) contract. This means that sometimes money must be spent on the engineering, before you go to procurement, which is buying the actual equipment and so on, before you do the actual construction on site. And often, for project like that, you need to make 70 or 80% advanced payment before you even clear the site, because you don’t buy turbines like the way you buy a tin of milk on the shelf. You have to open a letter of credit, you have to pay the entire amount before they even start drawing the design of the turbine.

So, there’s a lot of misunderstanding about this; so when people go to the site and say “Oh, but you’ve been paid 80% and there’s nothing here!”, I just smile. I’m a quantity surveyor; I’ve been involved in this project and I know what it takes; many of the people making comments and passing judgments don’t know what it takes. By the way, you know, these turbines that we bought from G. E. were the lowest-priced turbines in the world at that time because we compared the prices. So, nobody, so far in all these investigations has come out to say the contracts were overpriced, or that G.E is not the best qualified company to supply the turbine, or the Nigerian companies have not been doing power projects. So, the whole thing is headline-grabbing, just to smear some people. But if you look at the facts, you see that there is nothing there.

And it is just like all the other probes, you know, FCT; they said I have 19 plots. How can I have 19 plots? I came to FCT with two plots; before I left, I revoked one of them because I’d had it for seven/eight years and because I revoked other people’s plots that they had had for seven/eight years, I revoked mine and allocated it to someone. So, I came to the FCT as minister with two plots and I left with one plot. Okay? People said I’d given my wife plot; yes, I did! There is no minister of FCT that will come and I challenge any Nigerian who will be minister for four years, see his wife everyday and will not give her a plot! What people have been doing is that they will go and give the plot in another name to hide it; I’m not like that, Okay? There is nothing wrong with my wife as a Nigerian applying for a plot in 2001 and getting it while I was minister in 2005. There’s nothing wrong in it; it’s not a crime. If I wanted to be dishonest, like other people, I would ask her to apply in another name or register a company and I give her a plot. Is that what Nigerians want?

Just because I have chosen to be open and transparent and say that my wife is a Nigerian, like every other Nigerian, she’s entitled to apply for a plot in Abuja and I give her, it is an offence! What is the difference between giving my wife a plot and giving another person’s wife a plot? You see, we live in a hypocritical country where people try to find fault and just smear you. Whether it is right or wrong, whether rules have been complied with or not is not the point! As far as Nigerians are concerned, El-Rufai gave himself 19 plots! People don’t know for instance, that they went into the computer base and got the name of every Rufai that had ever got land in Abuja, including Rufai from Bauchi, from Kano, from Sokoto and so on. They didn’t even say el-Rufai’s family got 19; they said Nasir el-Rufai gave himself 19 plots and newspapers carried it! Now, you see, this is the sort of country we live in. Newspapers are quick to grab headlines and plant them; the next day when you tell the truth, it’s in page two! And this is the country we live in! The danger of that is this: decent people will not want to come near public office, so the country will be taken over by criminals who have the shamelessness to be able to do things and try to hide it. The next minister of FCT will not give his wife a plot in her name; he will give her 10 plots in different names. Is that what we want? And we do this to ourselves as a people and we think Nigeria will develop. Nigeria will never change until we try to do what is right and clean and so far, we’ve not done that. And that is part of the tragedy. Whenever I read newspapers and I see stories on the power probe, they depress me because since we left office, there has been no additional investment in power. Since we left, these power stations, seven of them that were under construction, have stalled; nothing is being done until the probe is over, by which time when you ask the contractors to come back, it will cost you a billion dollars more! We will never make progress behaving that way as a country. You know it is not about finding fault with el-Rufai or finding fault with Obasanjo - we’re just two individuals. But the 150 million Nigerians need electricity; 150 million Nigerians need their capital (FCT) to work, to function. Who is talking about that? Why are the papers only talking about Obasanjo and el-Rufai? What is so important about two individuals? What about the country? What about power? What about Abuja? What about the rising food crisis? What is being done? You know, it really depresses me when I look at what we spend energies on other than what we should be spending our energies on.

You said something about finding fault with immediate past leaders, and then, of course, you’re a victim now, just as former President Obasanjo is now a victim. Do you have any inclination why you were singled out for this mud-slinging? And as an adjunct to that question, what is your relationship with the present FCT minister, Aliyu Modibbo?
I don’t know why I am – you know, Obasanjo had over 100 ministers in his two terms, I am one of the few honoured ones that have been identified as important enough to be investigated. FCT never had the biggest budget, and I thank God that up till now, the investigation has not accused me of taking a penny of government money. I think that is a credit to me. Nobody has yet accused me of diverting one naira from the government coffers. Oh, they’re saying that I’ve given land to my friends. I have no apology.

Everyone of my classmates at Barewa College, I’ve given land. Everyone that I know who has applied I’ve tried to give, but in addition, I have 27 and thousand other people that I’d never met. I did my job as minister; I’ve no apology for that. No matter how you try to manipulate it to sling mud on me, I’ll take it: my shoulders are wide. I’m a small guy but I have wide shoulders. I didn’t have the biggest budget. Many ministers had a bigger budget; they’re not being investigated. I wasn’t the most important or the highest-profiled minister. I enjoyed a special relationship with Obasanjo; yes, because I was running this city (Abuja) for him. Constitutionally, he was the governor of the FCT. But it is because of my closeness and loyalty to Obasanjo that I’m being targeted, I will take the heat. I sleep well every night. I know that throughout my tenure, either in BPE or FCT, I had done nothing wrong. I did everything by the rules as they existed at that time. And all the attempts to try to show that el-Rufai disobeyed court orders, so far, I’ve shown that no court order had been served on me that I disobeyed. People even thought I was calling people to eject A or B. So far, the hearings have shown nothing like that. I sleep very well at night, knowing that one day, I will face God and be able to stand before God and say “I tried my best.” Yes, I’m human and I’ll make mistakes but I’ve tried my best. That doesn’t worry me. The reason for the mudslinging, I think you should ask the mudslingers: Why?

So now, let me answer the second leg of your question about Aliyu Modibbo. Aliyu Modibbo and I met in 1980. I was doing my youth service in Abeokuta and used to come to Lagos. He was doing a diploma in journalism at the Nigerian Institute of Journalism, and that was when I met him. We’ve been friends. We’ve kept contact since then; he went to America to study journalism or TV production or whatever it was he studied. We kept in touch over the years, and as far as I’m concerned, he’s my good friend. But you know, friendship is a two-way stream: you can take someone as your friend, yet he takes you as something else. I consider Aliyu my friend and when this temporary job is over, we’ll be friends again, I have no bitterness; In fact, in many ways, if he is behind all this and there are many indications that he is — I thank him for doing that, because you see as I told the Senate Committee, every FCT minister leaves office with a cloud of suspicion. “Oh, he allocated a thousand plots to himself!”, “Oh, she has 100 houses”. So, you know, for me it’s a great opportunity to defend myself, to clear my name, and after this, I don’t think anybody will come out and say el-Rufai has this or that again, because if you say I have it, I will say “Why didn’t you bring it to the Senate Committee which is looking to find me guilty of something? It’s a great opportunity, and at the end of the day, I think that this would turn out the best thing to me.

Sir, what people are really talking about is that you did a good job but that you didn’t put human face. That’s number one. Then number two, people are asking why you were a bit anti-North?
Look, many people have used funny phrases like “human face” and all that; what do they mean? Look, I was minister of FCT, I was sitting there, I saw the challenges and I tried to solve them my own way. You may disagree and say that I didn’t do this or that; that’s your point of view. I think I should be assessed by whether what I did was within the law, was within the rules given to me, within the mandate given to me by the government elected at that time. This government may have a different set of priorities but the government of our time saw a city well planned becoming a slum and I was given the task of reversing it and I think I did. Now, you can say there’s human face in it or there is no human face. If you ask Amina Salihu, she will tell you there is human face, because we built 1,000 houses for low-income people, we did A, we did B; we saved 46 children from a criminal orphanage, a woman that was selling children, we did all that.

Nobody did that before. We can tell you all the human faces we did. We can show the statistics that showed the improvements we did in our schools, in our hospitals, all “human” activities. Our administration was not about demolishing or revoking land.

In fact, demolishing and revoking land affected mostly the elite, but what we did quietly, silently, heavier investment in education, social welfare, health, and so on and so forth, we did all that, we solved transportation problems, we re-organised this town so that it functions better. These are all human activities, but people can sit and say “you didn’t do it with a human face.” My question is: if you were there, what would you have done different? And when you get there, do it your way! I’ve done it my way, I believe I did the best I could, I believe I’m human, so I’m not perfect, so I can make mistakes.But even my enemies admit that we left Abuja a better place than we found it. Even our own enemies, even those that are paid to write columns to abuse us give us that credit. So, please all those talking about “human face” should wait, when they’re minister, let them show the “human face”, and show me how they can do this job where every big man in Nigeria feels that he is entitled to break the law with “a human face”! That’s all. People have said that what I did was against the Northern elite. Probably, Why? Because the Northern elite are the largest beneficiaries of land and so on in Abuja. It is true. It’s just an accident of history. When Abuja was created, there was opposition from the Southwest. Chief Awolowo felt that if he won the election in 1979, he would not even move the capital. He didn’t think of Abuja as a good idea; so many people in the Southwest did not embrace the Abuja idea. Those that embraced Abuja were the Southeast and the North. So, they’re the biggest land owners and so on. Of course, if they’re the biggest land owners, when we come to revocation and demolition, they would be the ones mostly affected. We didn’t just sit down and say “Oh, we’ll target people from this part of the country or that part of the country”. We just looked at what was on ground then and tried to solve the problem.

If people felt affected ethinically or regionally, it’s unfortunate, it’s an accident, and I don’t really take that to be anything. I believe as follows: that the biggest problem of Nigeria is the failure of the elite to understand that it is in the interest of the elite for a country to run well, it is in the interest of the elite to have rules and regulations. But in Nigeria, the elite believe that rules are for others, not for them and this is my problem with them. What I did in Abuja was to say that rules must apply to everyone, whether you’re a Head of State or an ordinary Nigerian. If you get a plot of land that you’re supposed to develop within two years and you’ve not developed it after 12 years, I would revoke it. It is not disrespectful, I’m just applying the rules, and the rules should apply to everyone if we’re a society that should progress. You can’t say that as a leader, rules should not apply to you but should apply to everyone else. I think that is the bane of Nigeria, and if you see many people abusing me or complaining about me, it is because I’ve tried to apply rules to them, when they feel that they should be exempted from rules; I don’t believe that, because I didn’t exempt myself from rules. I was minister when I revoked my plot, so tell me whose plot I should not revoke if it contravenes the law. This was a fact. I revoked my plot in Asokoro and it has been given to somebody who has already nearly built it.

Sir, apart from the claim that the Northern interest is behind these travails, there’s also the belief that, like Mallam Nuhu Ribadu is being accused of favouritism, that President Obasanjo was using him to hound his political adversaries, it was also suggested that because all of you were “Obasanjo’s favoured boys”, that he used you to revoke the land of some of his political enemies. How true is that claim?
I would use just one word: nonsense! Let’s take Nuhu Ribadu, for instance. Odili is Obasanjo’s enemy, right? That’s why he was hounded. Ibori was Obasanjo’s enemy, right? He was hounded. Chimaroke Nnamani is Obasanjo’s enemy, right? That’s why he was hounded. James Ibori was Obasanjo’s enemy, right? All these are Obasanjo boys! Everybody knows! Among the governors, Obasanjo’s favourites were Ayo Fayose, Chimaroke Nnamani, Peter Odili and James Ibori. Was it not James Ibori that was the leading governor in getting President Yar’Adua elected? So isn’t there a contradiction in the claims that Nuhu Ribadu only targeted Obasanjo’s enemies? The truth is this: Nuhu Ribadu abhors sleaze of whatever colour and description. Whether they were Obasanjo’s “enemies” or not was not material, and nobody wants to admit that up till today, there isn’t a single person that EFCC has prosecuted or has pursued that has not been shown to have committed the offence. Okay? None! I mean, the charge sheet of all these people were published in the newspapers. I think Nigerians should be wiser and stop being confused by all these mixing apples and oranges.

Revoking land, look, when I came to FCT what I said was “whoever has a plot of land should develop it”. I put out an advert in the newspapers, it was in Tribune, it was in every paper, that “if you have a plot in these areas, please develop it within six months, if you don’t, we’re likely to revoke it.” These are all areas where your neighbours have built their houses, and you have a plot of land, you’re holding it, trying to sell it. Is it fair on other Nigerians that have applied, waiting for land, and you’ve held land for so many years? Because the C of O of FCDA says you should develop it within two years. Okay? So people had held land for 15 years; what was I supposed to do? Meanwhile, I had 85,000 applications of other Nigerians waiting to be given the opportunity to develop Abuja, and I wanted to develop Abuja.